Using my Promo Pics

Started by David Brenion, April 03, 2013, 01:28:29 AM

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David Brenion

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this is the best section of the forum for this topic, but I hope it's alright.

I wanted to bring up a topic that was brought to my attention today. There are some balloon artists who have used my promotional photos of Jumbos on their websites. I know this topic has come up MANY times, and has been argued back and forth for some time. But in this particular case, I feel I need to say something in support of this practice.

First, I want to say that as a general rule, using promotional photos from some one else's web site is simply wrong. We don't need to discuss that topic any further.

However, I have given this some thought, and in the case of Jumbos, I give full permission for people who have purchased the videos to use the photos on their own sites.

The reason is simple. These sculptures are not cheap to make. I could never in good conscience ask you, as a business owner, to go out and buy lots of expensive balloons, make all the designs yourself and take photos for your website before you can even begin to advertise the product to your clients.

I make and sell videos of content that I know is sellable. And I want you to start selling from day one if you can.

I do want to make it clear, however, that this liberty comes with the purchase of my video content. If I find that people are putting the pictures on their websites without first buying the video, then we have a problem.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on this topic.

Signeddiamond

#1
As a general rule I say no. I have been asked this before and I always feel that it is just a slippery slope.  In one instance i have given someone permission to use my photo on their website after buying my instructions. I did this with he clause that after a month I wanted it down. I felt that it gave them plenty of time to make a sale and take their own photo. I followed through with this.

I realized after that that I could not possibly expect myself to follow up with everyone I did this for so I just started telling everyone no.

If you can find a good way of keeping the line drawn then I say go for it. It is good for everyone but if you dont have enough to protect what is yours then just keep it under wraps.


Dylan Gelinas
www.slightlytwistedballoons.com

Thelma Levett

#2
I have had experience on two occasions of people taking a photo of from me and using it for their home page as if it is their work.  I asked for them to be taken off.  I met with some resistance from one of them.  I have seen a number of my models on a site with no credit to me and I asked for them to either take them down or give credit please.  They ignore me and I don't have a clue what to do about it.  But if someone asked permission to use one of my photos and they had bought my work?  First thought is "Ok, that's fair"  But then I think that if they can't make the model to the same standard they should not advertise it using that photo.  And if they could do it to that standard surely they would want their own photo.  Its not fair to the prospective client to see a photo and think the artist they are contacting is working to that skill level.  Then to find they turn up and just make the really simple stuff or very poor versions.  But then we are talking about pretty average balloon sizes.  
So about them posting your photos.  Personally I would want to have a go at making something before advertising that I could do it.  So really the standard of work ethic would still apply.  If I bought your instructions I would be rubbing my hands together in anticipation of making something.  I am sure most people would be.  I don't think its good for the client to be shown a great photo of your rendition only to be delivered a poor imitation because the person who made it didnt have the same skills or because they just hadnt ever made it before and had difficulties.    That would be my only worry about them showing your photo.  Otherwise I would say it was a nice and fair attitude to take.  I do love them by the way.

London

#3
i am not posting this as a balloon maker/twister. I am posting this as a Photographer.

Any time you take a photo from some one elses website. You are stealing. The photo belongs to the photographer. Even if they were paid to take the photo by some one else for the website UNLESS they have it in writing to say that they transfer OR give rights for you to use there copywriter work (whoever pushs the button owns the photo not who owns the camera ect..) You are breaking the law and are open to lawsuits.

Last year i made about $1700 tracking down people who have taken photos from my various websites and or blogs and used them on there own site.
Some people say that if you use it for none comerical  use (illustration ect...) you can use other peoples work BUT ! if you make any money what so ever via your website be it advertising, selling a product or service you are open to lawsuits.

In my case i send an invoice for the cost of using my photos usually around $100-$200 USD.

If you have photos on your site that are good and think people might use them its easy to see if people are you can use a google tool to do so. Go to your photo right clikc it and go copy URL.

Then go to //https://www.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi Click the picture of the camera and paste in the URL. Serach.
Google will then find any of your images on sites and you can see the Websites that aren't yours.  

If you would like details of what to do next post here and i will share that information.

For those using David 's photos i would make sure to contact her directly and get a written release.

Roger

#4
Hi David
I have a suggestion for you.

Why not provide a set of photos to purchasers that have some form of description at the bottom (may be just a logo) as Qualatex do.
and this way they are seen as your photos.

I would expect anyone intending to sell these to make at least one themselves first, they could use this as the main photo and then use yours as examples of what other designs are available.

Regards
Roger
When it comes to the day I arive at the pearly gates I hope to slide in sideways saying to st Peter WOW!!! what a ride.
http://www.iglobo.co.uk
http://www.twitter.com/@iglobouk

nippy99

#5
David,

To me it is false advertising. Every customer has the right to see the quality of the item they are buying. For example, if you look at the many posts on the forum showing examples of your Masks, you will see examples from various members here who followed exactly the same set of instructions. The funny thing is they are not all the same!

So if I had purchased from a website that just displayed a library photo of your mask design and I received some of these efforts, I would feel disappointed. On the other hand, if I displayed my own 'good but not as great' version on my website and delivered this then my customer would be happy. They got exactly what they saw.

I agree the cost of the balloons for your jumbos is high, especially if you don't normally stock 16"s. But once you have paid the initial start up costs then you should get a good return. It cost me over £100 just to get balloons to make the Penguin and the Duck!

You wouldn't take photos of another magician's show, stick it on your website, and then go out and perform it without any rehearsal time. Imagine standing in front of the audience and reading the trick instructions for the first time!

I'm sorry but this is the lazy approach to running a business.

D
Darren Atkins
MagicWorks Ltd


Twitter :
@magicworksltd

magirob

#6
I do see your point David and can understand that the costs of making the jumbos is quite high, my issue is with the fact that everyone who attempts to make your Jumbos will put their own little twists on them and everyone will come out differently, I know when I have made Dylan's balloons recently there are things I do which are different to Dylan's way, just because in my mind I think I prefer it, there is nothing wrong with that, we all put our own spin onto various models.

What I am trying to say is that my version of your jumbo would be different to your version and I would not feel right having a photo of your model that someone else made on my website.

But, as you say there is a high cost involved to anyone making them so I do actually like the idea of you supplying photos of the various jumbos with your stamp/watermark/logo on them to the people who buy your DVD, I do think the photos should be  marked with YOUR details. this would mean people could use them for a short period while they get their own photos of the Jumbos done.

Rob

funat60

#7
When I read David's post on this, I thought "Gee, that is really nice of him".  It is hard to buy all the balloons necessary to create new sculptures.
Then, I read Thelma's and realized how true it is that if you haven't tried making it - then how can you advertise that you can.  I know from my experiences that often it takes many tries to get the final sculpture to look anything like it is supposed to (and lots of broken balloons).  I would never post someone else's work on my site or tell people I could make something unless I had tried it already and I am not a professional like so many of you here on this forum.  Just my two cents worth.......
Millie
Twisting Grandma

Simply Shonna

#8
Anyone who has ever met David and his beautiful wife Shana know that they are both extremely nice, generous and caring people by nature.   While I can totally understand David's offer, I am in the same line of thinking as the others that have posted.

Shana and David both have amazing Artistic skills and great eyes for visual effects and beauty.   There was a lot of time and effort put forth by them as a team I am sure and that not many of us have the same abilities that they have, while me are also good at our own balloon style and have skills too.

Running a successful Business does cost money, time and much effort.   I wish that more people would start realizing that it is not the duty of other successful artist to provide all of their knowledge of designs and business for free.   It is not our responsibility to make others successful, especially as many of the people who do not want to invest in their own education and business are often the ones who are undercutting the already existing professionals.  

f you read on various forums, you hear people who do not have the skills or creativity of some other artist complaining about the price of DVD's and the cost of balloons or face paints or magic.  So many of the newer twisters post videos for free of designs they have learned from artist that have taken the time to produce DVD's and share their designs.   They seem not to have any respect or concern for the artist who have actually spent many years becoming great at what they do nor do they have any respect for the money spent by various artist to become great.    In my opinion it is a real shame.  

I do not know for sure and I am only sharing my opinion, but I believe that Qualatex and Sempertex/Betallatex sponsor and support various instructors and conventions because they are hoping to have sales of their product.   To be able to charge money for your designs and balloon art I would think you would need to experiment with the product and become skilled at making them.   Like mentioned before, if you are capable of making David's designs or those of others, you will begin to see a return on your investment if you put forth the effort.

My wish is for others to respect the time, effort and expense that artist like David Grist, Buster Balloon, Ken Stillman, Willy Monroe, Bidu, Colin M, Sue M, Luc B,  Alberto F, Dee and Jody, Guido, Ralph D, Nico, and so many others  have put forth and do things that help support them and not take advantage of their giving natures.

Smiles,
Shonna

Kenny

#9
Hi David, I have read all the post's on this topic, and I have to say that your correct in a way!!, people should not show your work on their websites if they have not purchased your DVD. That's just stealing!! I have never had the need to buy a DVD or Book, PDF etc, as i think the best way to learn to twist is to find one's skills first..then work from there. But that's a different story.!!

But I must say if the people that bought your DVD's, learned your designs to perfection, then put them on their website. Could those people say that it's their true design?! No. It's your design with your name on it, we are never going to think any different in the balloon world, as anyone who is up to date with the goings on in the balloon world will know these designs came from you David. Many designs that have been introduced in the past have been widely used by many a twister, and in turn these twisters have put the designs up on their websites with no mention of the true creator of these designs, so are these twister's stealing aswell?!

I do think that your being a bit controversial about this, as your not only selling these DVD's, but the balloons that are needed to make these designs cost £100, (as nippy said). So really if people that are buying these DVD's, are just learning and have not got the same skills as the true creator,(as Thelma said) then your selling them to lazy people in the first place that need to be spoon-fed designs, so in affect your feeding this industry. Im not being funny David, as i think your a great balloon artist, but say for example: Nippy bought your DVD, then 2 weeks later his best friend borrowed it, then a month later his friend borrowed it, and say 10 other people bought your DVD then each one of their friends borrowed it, and so on! Things will get very confusing as to "who bought the DVD". What im trying to say here is when you put your work out there "for sale" your going to get this sort of thing.
TwIsT On


[size=150]"Is that a normal balloon or do you need special balloons to make that stuff"[/size]

Lynnae

#10
David, I see your reasoning and it does make sense.  However, I've been in situations where I've seen something online and know I would be able to re-create it, but I haven't made it.  Then, I'll have a client ask for something like the model I saw online.  Do I show the client the picture stating that it isn't my own work (because I would never take credit for something I didn't do) OR do I re-create it, take my own photos, and send those?  I've been so close to sending the picture rather than taking the time to re-create it, but that has never felt right for me to do.  If I can do the piece, then I should do the piece.  Yes, it's a pain when the client ends up not wanting it, but I now have that piece and picture in my portfolio.  I simply feel weird saying that I can do something, but haven't done it yet, so here's a picture of something close that some one else did.  

Having said that, you know I re-created your jumbo bunny using my own "twist" on it before your video even came out.  I've also finished the frog.  Now having made my own, I would feel more comfortable putting my pictures up, then using yours so clients can see other possibilities, because I've already proven that I can make them.  It would allow me to expand my line up without having to invest in all the balloons for each design.  

I guess long and short of what I'm saying is there's no way I would put your pictures on my website without even having tried doing the jumbos first.  But now that I have tried them, know I can do them, paid for the video, and have my own pictures, adding your pictures (and crediting you) will allow clients to see possibilities that they couldn't even imagine.  Thank you, again, for a wonderful concept that I'm so excited about!

(I hope I made at least a shred of sense.  If not, well...it's early and I'm not functioning fully yet).
http://www.savannahballoons.com
"Nobody can be uncheered by a balloon!" - Winnie the Pooh

Simply Shonna

#11
If I am understanding Lynnae correctly, I totally agree with her line of thinking. :)

I do not believe there is a problem looking or showing a client your work and then showing them samples of others work, making note to your client, that this is not your work, but that you can make a likeness of the work.

After someone has demonstrated the skill needed to reproduce a few of that style then it should not hurt to show some other variations that would be available.

I may have not communicated my thoughts very well in my last post, but I do not think it is a problem to show clients samples of others designs and work and say that you believe you can reproduce it.   However directly using their work on your site as your own would be a huge "NO, NO" in my book.

Clients ask if Dustin or I can do different things all the time.   We do not necessarily have samples of the work they are asking from us, but we do have pictures of other custom designs.   I believe that that should be enough.  It is expensive and time consuming to come up with photos of all we are capable of doing and also the expense to create it all would be unreal.   However samples of your own work mixed with photos/samples of other peoples designs seems to me to be an excellent way to show your client the possibilities of décor with balloons.  

David is a very generous person for offering the use of his photos to those that purchase the DVD.   Unfortunately, probably the ones who will use those photos for promo will not be the ones who purchase the DVD or who have invested money, time and effort into the art form, but rather people out to make a quick buck of the hard work of others.  

Best luck and fortune to you all.
Shonna

funat60

#12
This is such a huge and interesting subject.  I for instance, had ordered two bags of mouse heads in error.  Not knowing what to do with them, I started playing around with them and realized what a great and easy body they made.  Added a round head and a couple of arms, and guess what!  I had made Shonna's creations before I even saw them online.  Now, I feel that I can't use the idea without giving her credit and justifiably so.  Did I really see it before I came up with it??
Millie
Twisting Grandma

David Brenion

#13
You have all raised some interesting points. I'd like to respond to a few of them.

1. First, thank you all for being so kind.

2. Some of you mentioned the ethical question of posting work that you may not be able to reproduce. To me, that is not an ethical issue, just a poor business decision. I would hope that people would try making the model at least once before advertising. My point (and others of you have brought this up) is that I would not expect you to buy all the balloons for all the designs before you had a chance to sell one or two. Then over time you would be able to build up your portfolio. My goal in making this video was to make a decor video accessible to balloon twisters. As a balloon twister myself, I know that we are not accustomed to buying lots of large round balloons. And so I wanted to make the transition into decor as smooth as possible. If using these photos helps get you off the ground, I'm happy to see you use them.

3. Kenny brought up the issue of piracy. In fact, many folks have brought up the issue of piracy once I put the videos online. The fear was that it would be too easy for people to steal it and share it with their friends. I might be swimming upstream on this issue, but I must say that piracy is of no concern to me. Those who want to steal will find a way, and those who want to support me will do so. I'm not suffering because some kid rips my DVD and sends a free copy to a friend. I'm not loosing sleep over the folks who have a balloon twisting party and view the video as a group. It would cost me more energy to track those people down, or to horde my material and not share out of fear of piracy. It's much easier for me to put the videos out there and just accept the results. I've been very successful as a video producer, and I don't intend to be intimidated by pirates....yarr!!!

4. London mentioned the photographer issue. In this case, my wife was the photographer and she gives full permission.

Let me finish by saying that I have a general philosophy in business that is summed up by the phrase "Nothing much matters". What this means is that I try not to let people steal my joy. I have a successful business and wonderful fans, so I have nothing to complain about. If someone steals my picture without permission, or copies my act, or whatever..."Nothing much matters". I know who I am and my fans love me for it, and thats all that matters.

seanmcd51

#14
Quote from: "David Brenion"3. Kenny brought up the issue of piracy.

To this point, David posted pictures of his Jumbos a year ago. I took the concept and started to make a bunny out of it. I emailed my photos to him privately asking for constructive criticism and he generously shared the Bunny he was already perfecting - which is what appears on the new Video. I used that to totally revamp my piece.

By the time his DVD was available, I already had the How-to  but I bought it anyway because I wanted to support David's many contributions to the industry.

In short, David tried to Pirate his own material to me but I took the high road and bought it anyway. Better luck next time David!  ;)